01-10-2020, 01:19 AMBDonini Wrote: I believe the two throwaway seasons caused by your team's management's desperation to win in bad faith might have something to do with the dip in interest...just a thought
Whatever makes you feel better I guess
No you're definitely right, it's our fault that two completely predictable seasons makes things boring
5. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 1 (Piotr Czerkawski 1, Cameron Dubois 2) at 16:27
First Ever Hat Trick:
Code:
S45 Game 46 NEW vs TOR
6. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 1 (Artemi Berezin 3, Tigole Bitties 5) at 5:21
9. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 2 (Artemi Berezin 4) at 18:58
10. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 3 (Tigole Bitties 7, Manuel Gotze 2) at 19:38 (Empty Net)
As a fairly new outsider and new player, I want to give my view on what’s going on. You should know I was drafted to Hamilton this season and I am just finishing up my second season in the SMJHL, definitely not in the SHL yet.
I think I understand the anger that is manifesting with other teams. I get there is something you view as an exploit. I get that you’re upset that Hamilton is set to win a championship and you feel that it was illegitimate.
But I will say, the amount of vitriol I have seen from other teams and players on here for something that was not prevented in the rules as far as I understand is the most toxic part of this league to me as a new player.
I have gotten hate from players in this league and I am literally brand new to what is going on. If anything drives me away it’s not a potentially broken simulation, I don’t even know how it works anyways, what will drive me away is what is feeling like a toxic league that instead of saying well shit we messed up and will fix the rules to improve the league, instead of punishing a team that used the rules to get an advantage, they instead chose to brigade and blame flaws on a machine to a team.
Hate on me if you will, but I will tell you, other new players like me will also leave when this worm turns on them eventually as well. You worry about activity, worry about what it feels like to us new players as well.
01-10-2020, 03:08 AM(This post was last modified: 01-10-2020, 03:13 AM by Noble.)
01-10-2020, 02:35 AMmxman991 Wrote: As a fairly new outsider and new player, I want to give my view on what’s going on. You should know I was drafted to Hamilton this season and I am just finishing up my second season in the SMJHL, definitely not in the SHL yet.
I think I understand the anger that is manifesting with other teams. I get there is something you view as an exploit. I get that you’re upset that Hamilton is set to win a championship and you feel that it was illegitimate.
But I will say, the amount of vitriol I have seen from other teams and players on here for something that was not prevented in the rules as far as I understand is the most toxic part of this league to me as a new player.
I have gotten hate from players in this league and I am literally brand new to what is going on. If anything drives me away it’s not a potentially broken simulation, I don’t even know how it works anyways, what will drive me away is what is feeling like a toxic league that instead of saying well shit we messed up and will fix the rules to improve the league, instead of punishing a team that used the rules to get an advantage, they instead chose to brigade and blame flaws on a machine to a team.
Hate on me if you will, but I will tell you, other new players like me will also leave when this worm turns on them eventually as well. You worry about activity, worry about what it feels like to us new players as well.
I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.
Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.
1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or
2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.
The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.
But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.
I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.
01-10-2020, 02:35 AMmxman991 Wrote: As a fairly new outsider and new player, I want to give my view on what’s going on. You should know I was drafted to Hamilton this season and I am just finishing up my second season in the SMJHL, definitely not in the SHL yet.
I think I understand the anger that is manifesting with other teams. I get there is something you view as an exploit. I get that you’re upset that Hamilton is set to win a championship and you feel that it was illegitimate.
But I will say, the amount of vitriol I have seen from other teams and players on here for something that was not prevented in the rules as far as I understand is the most toxic part of this league to me as a new player.
I have gotten hate from players in this league and I am literally brand new to what is going on. If anything drives me away it’s not a potentially broken simulation, I don’t even know how it works anyways, what will drive me away is what is feeling like a toxic league that instead of saying well shit we messed up and will fix the rules to improve the league, instead of punishing a team that used the rules to get an advantage, they instead chose to brigade and blame flaws on a machine to a team.
Hate on me if you will, but I will tell you, other new players like me will also leave when this worm turns on them eventually as well. You worry about activity, worry about what it feels like to us new players as well.
I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.
Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.
1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or
2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.
The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.
But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.
I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.
I love you Noble
First Ever SHL Goal:
Code:
5. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 1 (Piotr Czerkawski 1, Cameron Dubois 2) at 16:27
First Ever Hat Trick:
Code:
S45 Game 46 NEW vs TOR
6. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 1 (Artemi Berezin 3, Tigole Bitties 5) at 5:21
9. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 2 (Artemi Berezin 4) at 18:58
10. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 3 (Tigole Bitties 7, Manuel Gotze 2) at 19:38 (Empty Net)
01-10-2020, 02:35 AMmxman991 Wrote: As a fairly new outsider and new player, I want to give my view on what’s going on. You should know I was drafted to Hamilton this season and I am just finishing up my second season in the SMJHL, definitely not in the SHL yet.
I think I understand the anger that is manifesting with other teams. I get there is something you view as an exploit. I get that you’re upset that Hamilton is set to win a championship and you feel that it was illegitimate.
But I will say, the amount of vitriol I have seen from other teams and players on here for something that was not prevented in the rules as far as I understand is the most toxic part of this league to me as a new player.
I have gotten hate from players in this league and I am literally brand new to what is going on. If anything drives me away it’s not a potentially broken simulation, I don’t even know how it works anyways, what will drive me away is what is feeling like a toxic league that instead of saying well shit we messed up and will fix the rules to improve the league, instead of punishing a team that used the rules to get an advantage, they instead chose to brigade and blame flaws on a machine to a team.
Hate on me if you will, but I will tell you, other new players like me will also leave when this worm turns on them eventually as well. You worry about activity, worry about what it feels like to us new players as well.
I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.
Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.
1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or
2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.
The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.
But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.
I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.
All fair points, my questioning, and again forgive me if I am naive with it because again I’m a new player and some would call me out if I got a GM spot because I haven’t even had to regress my player yet. Why was rules not put in place to prevent them from using regression as a tool to make their ability to use that rule in their favor again?
I am a big football fan, and I am a jets fan, it’s sad for me I know. However, Bill Belichick did similar things in the NFL and while I straight up hated him for it I had to admit they were legal moves. This reminds me of that situation. I understand HO is under pressure, much like the league was in the NFL, but shouldn’t we be looking at the rules and the oversight instead of blaming a team for seeing an opportunity?
I don’t mean to throw anything anywhere, but for me being new, it seems to me that a team found a way to win under the rules and others don’t like it because of what may have been a gentleman’s agreement but no actual standing obligation. It may be distasteful but I’d think if I was running the league I’d seriously consider the fact that I need to make sure the gentleman’s rule is a written law moving forward. Let’s make the rules clear so people aren’t villains for interpretation right?
Well that’s not very nice. Might be a turnoff to new recruits to the site, too.
Imagine being on a team that is purposefully abusing the system and making people go inactive due to this team taking a lot of fun out of the league, and the team being too full of themselves to think "maybe we shouldn't ruin this league for many other people?".
Wouldn't be me.
First Ever SHL Goal:
Code:
5. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 1 (Piotr Czerkawski 1, Cameron Dubois 2) at 16:27
First Ever Hat Trick:
Code:
S45 Game 46 NEW vs TOR
6. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 1 (Artemi Berezin 3, Tigole Bitties 5) at 5:21
9. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 2 (Artemi Berezin 4) at 18:58
10. New England Wolfpack , Kristaps Ball 3 (Tigole Bitties 7, Manuel Gotze 2) at 19:38 (Empty Net)
01-10-2020, 03:08 AMNoble Wrote: I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.
Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.
1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or
2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.
The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.
But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.
I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.
All fair points, my questioning, and again forgive me if I am naive with it because again I’m a new player and some would call me out if I got a GM spot because I haven’t even had to regress my player yet. Why was rules not put in place to prevent them from using regression as a tool to make their ability to use that rule in their favor again?
I am a big football fan, and I am a jets fan, it’s sad for me I know. However, Bill Belichick did similar things in the NFL and while I straight up hated him for it I had to admit they were legal moves. This reminds me of that situation. I understand HO is under pressure, much like the league was in the NFL, but shouldn’t we be looking at the rules and the oversight instead of blaming a team for seeing an opportunity?
I don’t mean to throw anything anywhere, but for me being new, it seems to me that a team found a way to win under the rules and others don’t like it because of what may have been a gentleman’s agreement but no actual standing obligation. It may be distasteful but I’d think if I was running the league I’d seriously consider the fact that I need to make sure the gentleman’s rule is a written law moving forward. Let’s make the rules clear so people aren’t villains for interpretation right?
You're right, an onus does lay on rulemaking. BUT, that being said there is an inherent problem in seeing a system is still broken if exploited in a different way to achieve the same result and following through, knowing offseason has passed and HO can no longer change the rule. The season start had already been delayed weeks due to the first incident, and something had to be done. Limiting the gap and expecting Hamilton to follow "gentleman's rule" was the best HO could do. With what I've heard, I refuse to believe Aaron didn't test sim until he found exactly how broken he could make it and proceed not to bring up the gamebreaking issue prior to the rule being passed.
That's not an attack by the way, test simming isn't a bad thing. It was more saying that from what I've heard he does a lot and with that pattern I don't believe he didn't fully understand he was still going to be breaking the game.
01-10-2020, 02:35 AMmxman991 Wrote: As a fairly new outsider and new player, I want to give my view on what’s going on. You should know I was drafted to Hamilton this season and I am just finishing up my second season in the SMJHL, definitely not in the SHL yet.
I think I understand the anger that is manifesting with other teams. I get there is something you view as an exploit. I get that you’re upset that Hamilton is set to win a championship and you feel that it was illegitimate.
But I will say, the amount of vitriol I have seen from other teams and players on here for something that was not prevented in the rules as far as I understand is the most toxic part of this league to me as a new player.
I have gotten hate from players in this league and I am literally brand new to what is going on. If anything drives me away it’s not a potentially broken simulation, I don’t even know how it works anyways, what will drive me away is what is feeling like a toxic league that instead of saying well shit we messed up and will fix the rules to improve the league, instead of punishing a team that used the rules to get an advantage, they instead chose to brigade and blame flaws on a machine to a team.
Hate on me if you will, but I will tell you, other new players like me will also leave when this worm turns on them eventually as well. You worry about activity, worry about what it feels like to us new players as well.
I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.
Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.
1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or
2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.
The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.
But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.
I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.
I agree with most of this and even though HO is under heavy workload because of this they could have done better work to fight te exploit because there is no cap between scoring and passing and most of Hamilton were already low passing high scoring players and expecting team to add tpe to passing while knowing it makes then worse until others are happy with it seems like something that can't really be done. Like Nola was killing it during regular season, should they have been forced to add tpe to checking or penalty shot only until other teams think that playing field is equal enough?
On average Hamilton is pretty close that 20 point difference so if that will fix things then this seasons should not be a problem and if this is not ok then maybe even smaller cap should be explored.
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