Poll: Should we keep the PT cap?

Otrebor13 · 02-27-2019, 02:24 PM

02-27-2019, 12:16 PMDaco Wrote:
02-27-2019, 12:01 PMSwegButthole Wrote: That doesnt limit the players personal progression tho, only the teams, and we already have that but people are idiots and doesnt ask for money so we get some OP teams. Only way to fix that would be to make money harder to come by, which im totally against because it'd hurt the small amount of media we already have. Sure you could make the media stuff be a TPE reward instead of money maybe, idk.

But luckily the majority so far seem to want the cap gonezo

Merging uncapped into a cap that is larger like 100 keeps media coming but balances out the people who may not have 18mil per season to max. Otrebor had a good explanation I'm not sure if he posted it yet here. This let's the top tier players build a pretty big notch between them and midtier guys while keeping from those 2000 tpe extreme disparities. The numbers were just estimated I'm at work but I think the premise is good.

Essentially making the cap 33% higher than the average players tpe gained per season is my succinct summary there. If average persons combined capped and uncapped total tpe avg gain per season is 100, cap becomes 133 so the max players are creating a compounding gap over the mid tier season over season making them 200 points higher than their average peer in 6 seasons. That can be tuned accordingly.

Yeah I posted what we spoke about. It's on the 5th page.

http://simulationhockey.com/showthread.p...pid2587990

ml002 · 02-27-2019, 02:33 PM

02-27-2019, 09:38 AMJSS Wrote: TPE whores when removing the TPE cap is brought up:

don't remove the cap, pls and ty

The PT cap keeps TPE earners from a total of 3 TPE last season (not counting milestones which are completely random acts of Simon), so the cap is currently doing nothing

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iamslm22 · 02-27-2019, 02:38 PM

get rid of it - the confusion alone with it is annoying

Nerio · 02-27-2019, 03:19 PM

Games have progression caps to keep the ceiling and the floor close to each other, while keeping both sides engaged and not burning them out. The current cap isn't accomplishing that because you still have to do nearly everything to hit it. I don't even think you'd want to use a cap based system with the current pacing of TPE opportunities, since they're spaced out relatively well and don't require a massive commitment to accomplish.

As an aside, games have accelerated progression opportunities for the same reason, and I think our training camp and milestone systems are good examples of that working well. Seems good enough imo.

ztevans · 02-27-2019, 03:51 PM

While I was one of the people who voted to remove the cap, I fear from many of the responses I'm seeing in the thread that most people are only voting for it because of its negligible impact given the current TPE provision. The amount of available TPE, or the cap itself, can be adjusted to make it impactful as a game mechanic. "It's only 2 TPE" is a valid reason to make a change, but it's not a valid reason to vote for abolishing the cap imo.

ml002 · 02-27-2019, 03:54 PM

02-27-2019, 03:51 PMztevans Wrote: While I was one of the people who voted to remove the cap, I fear from many of the responses I'm seeing in the thread that most people are only voting for it because of its negligible impact given the current TPE provision. The amount of available TPE, or the cap itself, can be adjusted to make it impactful as a game mechanic. "It's only 2 TPE" is a valid reason to make a change, but it's not a valid reason to vote for abolishing the cap imo.

My point is it doesn't do anything as is. Unless they move to either increase the amount of capped TPE opportunities or make the cap smaller, the cap does nothing except add an extra step for updating and for updaters.

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FuzzSHL · 02-27-2019, 08:22 PM

02-27-2019, 01:08 AMEggy216 Wrote:
02-27-2019, 01:06 AMFuzzSHL Wrote: what about slightly increasing cap? keeping everything the same, raising cap from 40 to like 45?

It was raised not too long ago from 35 to 40, so at a certain point the question becomes whether it's best to just get rid of it (and raising it doesn't really resolve the issues with the Marius rule is causing/ease the transition between SMJHL and SHL). Plus there was 42 capped TPE available last season, excluding milestones, so it wouldn't really do anything without adding more PT opportunities.

I was unaware of it being raised, this is now my second season so I was just told 40. What's the Marius rule? If there was 42 capped TPE available last season (and if it is going to stay roughly the same) then I don't see an issue keeping it at 40.

Aleksi Kettu

Eggy216 · 02-27-2019, 10:12 PM

02-27-2019, 08:22 PMFuzzSHL Wrote:
02-27-2019, 01:08 AMEggy216 Wrote: It was raised not too long ago from 35 to 40, so at a certain point the question becomes whether it's best to just get rid of it (and raising it doesn't really resolve the issues with the Marius rule is causing/ease the transition between SMJHL and SHL). Plus there was 42 capped TPE available last season, excluding milestones, so it wouldn't really do anything without adding more PT opportunities.

I was unaware of it being raised, this is now my second season so I was just told 40. What's the Marius rule? If there was 42 capped TPE available last season (and if it is going to stay roughly the same) then I don't see an issue keeping it at 40.

I think it’s been raised twice since I’ve been on the site so thanks for making me feel old Tongue

.

Marius rule is basically that you need to include your cap every update, whether or not you’re claiming capped tpe.

Blastmeaway · 02-28-2019, 12:21 AM

02-27-2019, 08:36 AMspooked Wrote: If we talking about changing tpe caps can we revisit player build system while were at it please!

thats being discussed, see the last topic

Shout out to ml002, schultzy, slashacm, tedward!
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09-05-2018, 10:04 PMBeaver Wrote: Wow look what the PT affiliation has done to our pristine league.

12-19-2018, 12:31 AMBeaver Wrote: I personally blame the PT affiliation for handing out massive amounts of free TPE to all these players, inflating the TPE they're at when they get called up.

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Carbine · 02-28-2019, 08:35 AM

Get rid of it. Like it was mentioned, there was only 42 capped TPE available last season, which makes the cap virtually redundant if we don't either increase the capped TPE opportunities or increase the capped TPE available per task.

ArGarBarGar · 02-28-2019, 09:51 AM

If the issue is the lack of PTs to do, why wouldn't there be a push for more of those?

Like, wasn't that kind of the point of raising it in the first place?

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ztevans · 02-28-2019, 10:04 AM

02-28-2019, 09:51 AMArGarBarGar Wrote: If the issue is the lack of PTs to do, why wouldn't there be a push for more of those?

Like, wasn't that kind of the point of raising it in the first place?

I'd love to see the trend of available capped TPE over the past several seasons, not just this season. I definitely *feel* like there used to be more, but *feel* isn't exactly concrete evidence lol. Feels like that would be important to make an educated decision.

teztify · 02-28-2019, 11:38 AM

02-27-2019, 11:05 AMArGarBarGar Wrote:
02-27-2019, 10:58 AM.bojo Wrote: it's not about if the semi can hit the cap. the difference is still 10 tpe for the person who can go above 40. the active player would make 1500 instead of 1400 (just an example) after 10 seasons. the semi is still making the same progress he normally would. the only difference is that the active player can fight regression a little better.

which, would make even more sense if this is tied together with the regression ideas people have been throwing around.

You are assuming all semi-actives hit the cap, though.

Also how robust do we have to make regression before people are satisfied? Not to mention all-time records will be all but impossible to hit if we continue to do that.

It seems all these suggestions are being made without any recognition of everything else that is involved in the league. We did that the first time we tweaked regression recently, we did that with the new update scale, and I feel like we are going to be doing that with these suggestions now.

Nobody is assuming that all semi-actives hit the cap. The idea that removing the cap is worse for semi-actives who only do 10% or 50% of the PTs than it is for semi-actives who hit the cap is wrong. Bojo is right here.

Of course removing the cap increases the disparity between max earners and semi-actives who earn less. But it increases that disparity by the same amount for everyone, regardless of whether Semi-Active A earned 10 capped TPE or Semi-Active B earned 30 TPE, that doesn't matter. The gap between them and the max earner only grows by between 3-10 TPE per season. The extra 20 between A and B is mathematically meaningless for the purpose of considering this - that gap is already in place regardless of what we do.

Given the graph earlier in this thread that shows the minimal impact of dropping the cap, and how much easier it makes our updates, I think it's entirely worth it.

I think some folks are misunderstanding how problematic it is for some updaters to work with the Marius rule. Many semi-actives aren't aware of the Marius rule, forget it, don't know the cap, or how much TPE they have that is capped. Do you think that making them include it in every update helps keep them active? That's what the concern is after all. I think that simplifying the updating process for those players who don't stay on top of everything is the way to keep those players more active and less confused. Not by rejecting their updates.

And sure we can continue to say "reject their updates and tell them how the cap works." Great in theory but some updaters are more lenient. They say "I'll allow this update but remember this rule", which is a problem because then you have teams being treated differently.

**.bojo** · 02-28-2019, 11:46 AM

02-28-2019, 11:38 AMteztify Wrote: Bojo is right here.

Senpai noticed me

ArGarBarGar · 02-28-2019, 11:57 AM

02-28-2019, 11:38 AMteztify Wrote: Nobody is assuming that all semi-actives hit the cap. The idea that removing the cap is worse for semi-actives who only do 10% or 50% of the PTs than it is for semi-actives who hit the cap is wrong. Bojo is right here.

How can you assert it isn't worse when removing the cap literally provides more TPE for those who would have hit the cap compared to semis who wouldn't get close? The gap is literally increasing by doing this. And it would have been even worse if we went from a 35 cap to no cap (and I still don't understand why we increased the cap in the first place when PTs didn't increase)

02-28-2019, 11:38 AMteztify Wrote: Of course removing the cap increases the disparity between max earners and semi-actives who earn less. But it increases that disparity by the same amount for everyone, regardless of whether Semi-Active A earned 10 capped TPE or Semi-Active B earned 30 TPE, that doesn't matter. The gap between them and the max earner only grows by between 3-10 TPE per season. The extra 20 between A and B is mathematically meaningless for the purpose of considering this - that gap is already in place regardless of what we do.

Given the graph earlier in this thread that shows the minimal impact of dropping the cap, and how much easier it makes our updates, I think it's entirely worth it.

This is why I would advocate dropping the cap back to 35 and/or adding more PT opportunities. Again, the entire point was to give semi-actives more opportunities to hit the cap and be competitive with those who were super active, and by only having a minimal amount of TPE to earn from PTs above the cap, that supposed support for semi-actives is non-existent.

02-28-2019, 11:38 AMteztify Wrote: I think some folks are misunderstanding how problematic it is for some updaters to work with the Marius rule. Many semi-actives aren't aware of the Marius rule, forget it, don't know the cap, or how much TPE they have that is capped. Do you think that making them include it in every update helps keep them active? That's what the concern is after all. I think that simplifying the updating process for those players who don't stay on top of everything is the way to keep those players more active and less confused. Not by rejecting their updates.

And sure we can continue to say "reject their updates and tell them how the cap works." Great in theory but some updaters are more lenient. They say "I'll allow this update but remember this rule", which is a problem because then you have teams being treated differently.

I don't know, do you think we have lost members from this? Updaters shouldn't be giving that kind of leeway, and if anything should be demonstrating how it works themselves if they want to be lenient.

If you remove the cap, do we continue to let super-actives run roughshod over semi-actives or do we actually try to implement a system that the PT cap was put in place to begin with? Doesn't seem like anyone actually cares about that.

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Poll: Should we keep the PT cap? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Keep it	29.06%	34	29.06%
Get rid of it	60.68%	71	60.68%
Don't care	10.26%	12	10.26%
Total		117 vote(s)	100%

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