01-10-2020, 03:24 AMjcfbey01 Wrote:

01-10-2020, 02:36 AMNarconis Wrote: Well that’s not very nice. Might be a turnoff to new recruits to the site, too.

Imagine being on a team that is purposefully abusing the system and making people go inactive due to this team taking a lot of fun out of the league, and the team being too full of themselves to think "maybe we shouldn't ruin this league for many other people?".

Wouldn't be me.

01-10-2020, 03:29 AMpuolivalmiste Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:08 AMNoble Wrote: I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.

Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.

1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or

2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.

The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.

But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.

I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.

I agree with most of this and even though HO is under heavy workload because of this they could have done better work to fight te exploit because there is no cap between scoring and passing and most of Hamilton were already low passing high scoring players and expecting team to add tpe to passing while knowing it makes then worse until others are happy with it seems like something that can't really be done. Like Nola was killing it during regular season, should they have been forced to add tpe to checking or penalty shot only until other teams think that playing field is equal enough?

On average Hamilton is pretty close that 20 point difference so if that will fix things then this seasons should not be a problem and if this is not ok then maybe even smaller cap should be explored.

01-10-2020, 03:28 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:23 AMmxman991 Wrote: All fair points, my questioning, and again forgive me if I am naive with it because again I’m a new player and some would call me out if I got a GM spot because I haven’t even had to regress my player yet. Why was rules not put in place to prevent them from using regression as a tool to make their ability to use that rule in their favor again?

I am a big football fan, and I am a jets fan, it’s sad for me I know. However, Bill Belichick did similar things in the NFL and while I straight up hated him for it I had to admit they were legal moves. This reminds me of that situation. I understand HO is under pressure, much like the league was in the NFL, but shouldn’t we be looking at the rules and the oversight instead of blaming a team for seeing an opportunity? 

I don’t mean to throw anything anywhere, but for me being new, it seems to me that a team found a way to win under the rules and others don’t like it because of what may have been a gentleman’s agreement but no actual standing obligation. It may be distasteful but I’d think if I was running the league I’d seriously consider the fact that I need to make sure the gentleman’s rule is a written law moving forward. Let’s make the rules clear so people aren’t villains for interpretation right?

You're right, an onus does lay on rulemaking. BUT, that being said there is an inherent problem in seeing a system is still broken if exploited in a different way to achieve the same result and following through, knowing offseason has passed and HO can no longer change the rule. The season start had already been delayed weeks due to the first incident, and something had to be done. Limiting the gap and expecting Hamilton to follow "gentleman's rule" was the best HO could do. With what I've heard, I refuse to believe Aaron didn't test sim until he found exactly how broken he could make it and proceed not to bring up the gamebreaking issue prior to the rule being passed.

That's not an attack by the way, test simming isn't a bad thing. It was more saying that from what I've heard he does a lot and with that pattern I don't believe he didn't fully understand he was still going to be breaking the game.

01-10-2020, 03:38 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:29 AMpuolivalmiste Wrote: I agree with most of this and even though HO is under heavy workload because of this they could have done better work to fight te exploit because there is no cap between scoring and passing and most of Hamilton were already low passing high scoring players and expecting team to add tpe to passing while knowing it makes then worse until others are happy with it seems like something that can't really be done. Like Nola was killing it during regular season, should they have been forced to add tpe to checking or penalty shot only until other teams think that playing field is equal enough?

On average Hamilton is pretty close that 20 point difference so if that will fix things then this seasons should not be a problem and if this is not ok then maybe even smaller cap should be explored.

Cheers to solid constructive conversation! The contrast between the two is that raising penalty shot impacts a very insignificant part of the game, raising checking changes a players dynamic but can still be counteracted and made manageable with upgrades to discipline. Creating a major divide between passing and shooting impacts core offensive gameplay, effecting career statistics and records, a heavy majority of game results and can be clearly traced as the reason behind a given result.

In my latest response above this, I did agree. It's a combination of management and administration being at fault. HO did great work putting out a temporary solution but maybe didn't test enough at the range they selected to ensure the problem wouldn't persist. Hamilton stayed within legality of the system but abused a known bug in the same way because there was no risk of having to change until the turn of the season.

It's a meh issue. My original post was mostly informative, to show people weren't being toxic over a small issue. Toxicity for toxicity sake isn't good, and I'm sorry a newer member had to experience it, but from the eyes of many it isn't unfounded. Years of people's lives have been spent on this site building their player's history and their own personal connections with users and those feel threatened when someone removes the fun irl aspect, and the even playing field of the entertainment aspect. Upset reactions are understandable, but vile ones are unfounded. I haven't seen them in my own experience with this situation, but I'm sure the exist.

01-10-2020, 03:23 AMmxman991 Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:08 AMNoble Wrote: I respect your opinion one hundred percent and definitely value it, and as a new player it's nice to see a fresh face step up and add to the conversation. That being said, after four irl years on this site, I hold an opinion I believe a vast majority of the userbase agrees with.

Hamilton was reprimanded for their exploit. It wasn't just seen as one, it was denounced by the league as fact, the strategic system broke the simulation and created an unfair advantage. This presented two options.

1) Ban the strategy, limit the differential between the two attributes or

2) Allow the strategy and watch the meta change, furthering closing the already small pool unique builds until there was an absolute concrete way to build a successful player.

The SHL chose to ban this strategy, and Hamilton was forced to revert their players. This was done because not only did it threaten to change the league for the worse, it created a historical and statistical imbalance. Teams spend literal years cultivating locker rooms and fighting through the lows and highs of real strategic team building. If Hamilton would have gone back to their original player builds and continued to respect the integrity of the league, it would have been fine.

But, they did not. They instead decided to intentionally limit the impact of the ban as much as possible and essentially turn down the knob on a broken strategy. STHS is a broken system, to the point that the exploit has forced a massive amount of stress upon Head Office and many other people with a hand in this league. Closing this gap JUST enough to meet the requirement, and realizing the problem of an imbalance still exists and proceeding with it is wrong. Even taking action to bench a player due to them not fitting the build requirement. It's taking advantage of the SHL's system of rule writing, knowing they would have an entire year of dominance before anything could change amidst the rulebook. It was a flagrant attempt to recreate a flaw in the simulator to the max. It takes away from the experience, places pressure on a large body of people who work tirelessly to keep this league running, and threatens the very stability of the system we must temporarily stay with. And it is done intentionally, in full acknowledgment.

I don't hate Hamilton, I like a lot of people on the team, but I also dislike seeing people I've known for years through this league lose interest over a couple people being conceded enough to ruin an entire league for over 200 people for nothing other than self gain. There is no disrespect intended, anything I may have gotten wrong I would gladly be corrected on because I have just been on the outside looking in. But from the outside, it looks pretty pathetic.

All fair points, my questioning, and again forgive me if I am naive with it because again I’m a new player and some would call me out if I got a GM spot because I haven’t even had to regress my player yet. Why was rules not put in place to prevent them from using regression as a tool to make their ability to use that rule in their favor again?

I am a big football fan, and I am a jets fan, it’s sad for me I know. However, Bill Belichick did similar things in the NFL and while I straight up hated him for it I had to admit they were legal moves. This reminds me of that situation. I understand HO is under pressure, much like the league was in the NFL, but shouldn’t we be looking at the rules and the oversight instead of blaming a team for seeing an opportunity? 

I don’t mean to throw anything anywhere, but for me being new, it seems to me that a team found a way to win under the rules and others don’t like it because of what may have been a gentleman’s agreement but no actual standing obligation. It may be distasteful but I’d think if I was running the league I’d seriously consider the fact that I need to make sure the gentleman’s rule is a written law moving forward. Let’s make the rules clear so people aren’t villains for interpretation right?

01-10-2020, 03:39 AMmxman991 Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:28 AMNoble Wrote: You're right, an onus does lay on rulemaking. BUT, that being said there is an inherent problem in seeing a system is still broken if exploited in a different way to achieve the same result and following through, knowing offseason has passed and HO can no longer change the rule. The season start had already been delayed weeks due to the first incident, and something had to be done. Limiting the gap and expecting Hamilton to follow "gentleman's rule" was the best HO could do. With what I've heard, I refuse to believe Aaron didn't test sim until he found exactly how broken he could make it and proceed not to bring up the gamebreaking issue prior to the rule being passed.

That's not an attack by the way, test simming isn't a bad thing. It was more saying that from what I've heard he does a lot and with that pattern I don't believe he didn't fully understand he was still going to be breaking the game.

I’m glad we can find ground to agree. So their strategy while allegedly not holding to the letter of intent believed by the HO was still holding to the jurisprudence set forth previously. Therefore while Hamilton can be argued to be disingenuous with the letter of the ruling is not out of compliance with the rules. Therefore while it might be distasteful for the one season the rules are valid for this season, are within their rights to pursue their strategy, whilst next season it is HO’s responsibility to curb the strategy to again return the field to a strategic norm? 

My point being, the league may not like it but there is nothing out of compliance for the season and similar to Bill pushing rules it is a valid strategy for the time being and the brigading is distasteful it understandable. 

My major point being as a new player I see the forums and the rules and put it in context with the vitriol and I think if it were not for the few nice people I have met so far I would have went IA a month ago and never come back. I’m sure others in my place might have. We need to think about this if we are to grow the league.

01-10-2020, 03:44 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:39 AMmxman991 Wrote: I’m glad we can find ground to agree. So their strategy while allegedly not holding to the letter of intent believed by the HO was still holding to the jurisprudence set forth previously. Therefore while Hamilton can be argued to be disingenuous with the letter of the ruling is not out of compliance with the rules. Therefore while it might be distasteful for the one season the rules are valid for this season, are within their rights to pursue their strategy, whilst next season it is HO’s responsibility to curb the strategy to again return the field to a strategic norm? 

My point being, the league may not like it but there is nothing out of compliance for the season and similar to Bill pushing rules it is a valid strategy for the time being and the brigading is distasteful it understandable. 

My major point being as a new player I see the forums and the rules and put it in context with the vitriol and I think if it were not for the few nice people I have met so far I would have went IA a month ago and never come back. I’m sure others in my place might have. We need to think about this if we are to grow the league.

Of course, it's completely legal and valid until rules change to state otherwise. People's reactions are people's reactions, and just like there are louder voices than others in real life the same sentiment rings true here. Unfortunately you caught the toxic end, and I hope you can continue to hold onto those good connections. You have just as much a place here as anyone else.

01-10-2020, 03:50 AMmxman991 Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:44 AMNoble Wrote: Of course, it's completely legal and valid until rules change to state otherwise. People's reactions are people's reactions, and just like there are louder voices than others in real life the same sentiment rings true here. Unfortunately you caught the toxic end, and I hope you can continue to hold onto those good connections. You have just as much a place here as anyone else.

I appreciate that, and more than that I hope that we can all remember that while one season of a team using something to win may be distasteful is not a reason to burn the relationships with all on that team that have also been a part of the league for years. In my outside opinion we need to get closer now, not pull apart or troll. This league is unique and attracted me immediately and we can’t allow a one season strategy to tear apart the league completely.

01-10-2020, 03:54 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:50 AMmxman991 Wrote: I appreciate that, and more than that I hope that we can all remember that while one season of a team using something to win may be distasteful is not a reason to burn the relationships with all on that team that have also been a part of the league for years. In my outside opinion we need to get closer now, not pull apart or troll. This league is unique and attracted me immediately and we can’t allow a one season strategy to tear apart the league completely.

yeah even if @"notorioustig" is stinky, @"Waters" only ever roasts me, @"Samee" is a loser and @"SecondSucks22" is the worst I still like them all. They may be stinky steelhawks but they're like... cool too

01-10-2020, 03:54 AMNoble Wrote: yeah even if @"notorioustig" is stinky, @"Waters" only ever roasts me, @"Samee" is a loser and @"SecondSucks22" is the worst I still like them all. They may be stinky steelhawks but they're like... cool too

01-10-2020, 03:54 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:50 AMmxman991 Wrote: I appreciate that, and more than that I hope that we can all remember that while one season of a team using something to win may be distasteful is not a reason to burn the relationships with all on that team that have also been a part of the league for years. In my outside opinion we need to get closer now, not pull apart or troll. This league is unique and attracted me immediately and we can’t allow a one season strategy to tear apart the league completely.

yeah even if @"notorioustig" is stinky, @"Waters" only ever roasts me, @"Samee" is a loser and @"SecondSucks22" is the worst I still like them all. They may be stinky steelhawks but they're like... cool too

01-10-2020, 03:54 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:50 AMmxman991 Wrote: I appreciate that, and more than that I hope that we can all remember that while one season of a team using something to win may be distasteful is not a reason to burn the relationships with all on that team that have also been a part of the league for years. In my outside opinion we need to get closer now, not pull apart or troll. This league is unique and attracted me immediately and we can’t allow a one season strategy to tear apart the league completely.

yeah even if @"notorioustig" is stinky, @"Waters" only ever roasts me, @"Samee" is a loser and @"SecondSucks22" is the worst I still like them all. They may be stinky steelhawks but they're like... cool too

01-10-2020, 04:21 AMSecondSucks22 Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:54 AMNoble Wrote: yeah even if @"notorioustig" is stinky, @"Waters" only ever roasts me, @"Samee" is a loser and @"SecondSucks22" is the worst I still like them all. They may be stinky steelhawks but they're like... cool too

How can you say I'm the worst when @"dmills3" is standing right there? Or did you not see him, it's possible, he's pretty short

01-10-2020, 04:31 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 04:21 AMSecondSucks22 Wrote: How can you say I'm the worst when @"dmills3" is standing right there? Or did you not see him, it's possible, he's pretty short

i bet ur shorter u little... uhhh... crazy? idk i ran out of light hearted insults and i didn't know if i could call you a "dirty little slut" or if that wasn't your kinda talk

01-10-2020, 03:54 AMNoble Wrote:

01-10-2020, 03:50 AMmxman991 Wrote: I appreciate that, and more than that I hope that we can all remember that while one season of a team using something to win may be distasteful is not a reason to burn the relationships with all on that team that have also been a part of the league for years. In my outside opinion we need to get closer now, not pull apart or troll. This league is unique and attracted me immediately and we can’t allow a one season strategy to tear apart the league completely.

yeah even if @"notorioustig" is stinky, @"Waters" only ever roasts me, @"Samee" is a loser and @"SecondSucks22" is the worst I still like them all. They may be stinky steelhawks but they're like... cool too